Ahmed El Ghazoly, aka ZULI, is known as one the leaders of Cairo’s underground music scene. He is a part of Ahoma, Kairo is Koming, and Vent club.
ZULI’s music draws from many genres, like Hip Hop, Jungle and Techno.
We spoke to him about his influences, his approach to music production, and his latest release “ALL CAPS” on Lee Gamble’s UIQ imprint.
I read that you’ve lost a year’s worth of material when your gear was stolen, how did that affect this record ?
…It kind of forced me to make stuff from scratch. Not just music, also sound because like many producers I’ve been building my sound library over the years and along with the equipment and the music that was lost I also lost all the sound design I did in 2018 so I had to start building the sound library and then using those sounds to make new stuff. I don’t know I think I was forced to explore areas that I hadn’t explored in the stuff that I lost so I’m glad with the results to be honest.
Did it go in a new direction ?
I’d say similar, close but different at the same time. One of the tracks survived its called “Penicillin Duck” it’s the first track on the b-side, i’m sure you could tell it sounds different, well i guess all the tracks sound different from each other but this one in particular sounded like the rest of the record that was lost.
You talk about dance music as something that is not necessarily made for club use. Is “ALL CAPS” a good example of that?
I mean that, for me, for myself, thats how i see dance music. Because growing up in Egypt i was always into the type of dance music that was never in the clubs, so i’m used to listening to it indoors on my own and i enjoyed it ! I dont have to be in the context of dancefloor to enjoy it. That’s how i see dance music in general.
This is your 4th release on UIQ, is there something special to you about that label ?
It just feels very natural because Lee (Lee Gamble) and I have been friends for years. We have this close friendship and whenever i make something i send it to him anyway, for feedback. This record in particular, Lee and I both agreed that it would be a good idea, after “Terminal”, which was more of a listening album, to release something more suited for the dancefloor. This record in particular made a lot of sense to be on UIQ.
You use samples quite a lot. What do they add to your music?
I do use samples a lot, I guess. Which one in particular ?
In “Bro! (Love it)” for example?
The thing is about this entire record, particularly on « bro », i’m just being very silly really, just having fun, nothing too serious. If you read my past interviews you’ll see that the issues that I adress in “Bro!”, i’ve adressed them for a long time now but that’s not to say that this is an issue that i’m fighting for, it’s more casual and light than that.
In the past couple of years, I’ve kind of changed my approach to music. I’m taking myself less seriously and I’m having more fun with it, partially because I miss how it used to feel as a teenager to make music, that excitement. When things become formal and you’re touring… I’ve kind of lost that a bit. So ever since Covid and the lockdown, it sounds really cheesy but I have learned to appreciate music a lot more and this approach helps with that. Its just being silly making jokes. Even the track titles ! You understand them because you speak arabic. The track titles are ridiculous. There is a track called “where do you go” on the record where I do this 8 bar verse, or even 6 bars, and the lyrics are just stupid. They’re just really stupid rap lyrics, not just for the sake of being silly allthough that’s a part of it, but also as a sort of critique of the state of egyptian rap. Even though my lyrics are silly on that track they’re not sillier than serious egyptian rap tracks.So I just thought it would be fun to do that. Just having fun you know!
Do you listen to music when you’re working on something ? or does it get in the way of you trying to come up with new ideas?
I constantly listen to music and it definilety influences my output. I wouldn’t consider it « getting in the way ». I feel like whether you are aware of it or not, as a musician you have to draw from other musicians. It happens whether you are aware of it or not. I’m not consciously stealing from anyone but i’m sure that i am unconsciously stealing from a lot of people. That’s just how it is i guess. Also because I really like Djing as well. I enjoy the process of digging and I am in a lucky position where I have a radio show so people send me promos so a big part of my life is listening to new music. I could never stop that, and i enjoy it!
How do you think collaborating with other people affected your production process ?
I’ve always found it really difficult to collaborate with other people. I think the first collaboration that i’ve actually released was with Broshuda, and the other one with Maoupa (Mazzocchetti). The thing is, yes we did collaborate, but in a very 21 century way where we send each other stems. It’s like building on top of what the other person sends. Honestly, these two collabs have been very smooth which i’m sure isn’t always going to be the case. I am collaborating with a few more people now, and i have had to make compromises which is probably the main reason I have been avoiding collaborations in the past but i knew it eventually was going to happen. That’s not to say that i’m not happy with the collaboration, it’s a nice track and everything. Yeah I think this is the only way I’ve been able to collaborate up untill now. I do have plans in the near future to collaborate with musicians in person, i’m going to see how that goes. Not entirely sure, but i’m optimistic. It’s someone i really respect someone whose taste and talent i trust a lot so..
Is it a secret ?
It’s kind of a secret at the moment.
We clearly hear the influence of UK in your music (breakbeat, jungle…). Does that have anything to do with you growing up there ?
I don’t think so, no. Because I moved back to Egypt when i was very young. I was 9 or 10 years old, and i think that was the peak of jungle but obviously I wasn’t aware of it, I was a child. I wasn’t even aware that there was a UK influence in my sound until people started telling me. The thing is about music with me, I try as much as possible not think too much about it. That’s just me. Whenever I come to understand how something works It ruins it for me and it becomes more difficult to do. I’m sure there is a big UK influence but if I really wanted to analyse it, I think I can point out influences from all over, like north american, south american, even Egyptian.
What were your first encounters with the experimental side of electronic music ?
I think the experimental side of electronic music is what brought me back towards the more djfriendly stuff because I was really into dance music when i was a teenager to my early 20’s then I completely moved away from it. I was making guitar music which always had an electronic element and I was always in charge of the engineering side of it. Through that I came to discover artists like SND specifically and when they released on PAN, I discovered PAN. I tell Bill (Kouligas) this whenever we talk, that PAN changed my life really. There is so much different stuff and the curation is always on point, and it’s through PAN that I discovered Lee Gamble which obviously jump started my entire thing.
I think also Actress around 2010 when “Splazsh” came out, and then “R.I.P” (2012). All these experimentations with house and techno at the time, part of which was lo-fi house and lo-fi techno. It was Lobster theremin that kind of brought me back into straightforward dance music that I could play in a Dj set.
What kind of music were you making before “ZULI” ?
The thing is, ZULI has always been the name I make music under and I keep changing my style all the time. But I’ve always been a genre hopper really. Like I mentionned i was making guitar music for the longest time up until 2008/2009 but there was always an electronic influence like I was a massive fan of Nine Inch Nails and bands like Placebo.
Did you try to emulate them in some way ?
Yeah of course, especially when I was learning to play the instruments. I still can’t play them properly. I dabble a little bit with the bass, keys, drums and stuff, but that was my method to learn these instruments. I was a big fan of the music.
Then around 2009 there was a genre that was a joke genre called Chillwave, with people like Toro y Moi, neon indian, washed out. I was in a chillwave band with Asem ($$$TAG$$$) who was also my partner at VENT. Because chillwave has that dance music influence (can’t believe I’m using chillwave in a sentence without joking), it helped me keeping the house/techno lovers inside me alive, which is weird because now I don’t even listen to techno/house.
In 2011/2010, I met Abyusif and we got into hip-hop together. I was making beats under Swag Lee which was supposed to be a joke-name. I was supposed to make one beat under that name and I just kept on making beats.
It’s a pretty good name!
Yeah it’s funny i guess. It was never meant to be serious but the stuff with Abyusif kind of blew up and neither of us was expecting it. We were just doing it for fun, and it took on a life of its own. So yeah i did have a big hip hop phase. I still have a love/hate relationship with hip-hop to this day.
In 2018, you wrote in the description of “Terminal” that you were often approached with a preconceived notion of your influences and taste based on your nationality. Do you still experience that type of misperception ?
Absolutely, even on some reviews on “ALL CAPS”. I mean, yes there is a bit of Electro-chaabi or mahraganat in the track “Bro” but it’s clearly a piss-take. I don’t want to drop any names right now or blame anyone, but even when i release something that has nothing to do with that, journalists (who i love), just assume and write “this Electro-chaabi guy” and it’s just like, come on man ! Just listen to my stuff.
And they always try to inject political narratives, projecting their own ideas of what an egyptian musician should be and i feel like the concept of “an egyptian musician” is kind of ridiculous considering that we’re like 120 million at the moment. I don’t really consider myself an egyptian, i’m just a musician. Where i live and where i’m from obviously has some sort of influence but i’d like to think that there’s more to me as a musician than the influence of egypt on me.
Does that make you more hesitant to do interviews ?
No, because then i get to talk about it and correct people. It’s the least i can do because i’m sure i’m not the only one who is annoyed by this. The thing is, a lot of musician actually like that narrative, they thrive on it and they use it but there are others that i’m sure are uncomfortable with it so whenever i have the opportunity to point it out I do that.
Cairo’s scene is getting a lot of attention in recent years. What do you think about where things are heading ?
I’m kind of optimistic really which is something i haven’t felt in over 7 or 8 years since the VENT days. There is a new generation of djs and producers that I just met a couple of weeks ago, all under 25, really passionate, they really love music. I’m very excited to see where they go.
Besides that, the group of artists that i’m affiliated with at the moment, we all have the same hunger, same drive and passion. The Irsh nights that we do (more like hangouts) have been amazing because you get to see what everyone else is listening to because we all dj (b2b) and you get to see what everyone’s into, and the overlap is very interesting. It’s exciting really. I’m not sure how things are going to be in terms of proper shows and permits because they have become a little bit more strict. But overall I definitely am optimistic.
Is there someone in particular that we should check out ?
I just met them litteraly 2 weeks ago so i’ll get back to you on that. But very promissing, only one of them has sent me his music i think the others are still shy or something. I hope they hurry it up because i’m very eager to listen because their taste is amazing. We spoke a lot about music and their approach. It comes from a very passionate place.
Obviously Djs like Assyouti, LTFLL.. It’s very exciting because before that there’s always been a very strong house and techno scene, and the stuff that we’re interested in was non-existant, that’s not the case anymore and i’m very happy about that.
You have been a regular on NTS radio since 2016. What role do you think online radios play in promoting the underground scene ?
That’s been amazing, it’s such an amazing platform, not just for me. Because i’m a Dj so i get to play at least 20 to 40 tracks and up-and-coming producers know that, so they send me their music and it’s just amazing to be able to showcase all that talent. I think it plays a massive role to be honest, not just NTS but also other radio stations like Noods, for example, amazing as well.
Can you tell us about irsh ? Was it a reaction to the pandemic ?
This was before the pandemic, we stopped since the pandemic hit. I was travelling a lot in 2019 and whenever i come back to Cairo I’d be kind of bored because nothing was really happening except house and techno. Rama was also bored and we talked about it and realised that almost everyone that we want to see is a dj or a producer. So we thought why not invite everyone to my house. I have a flat and the 3 other flats on the same floor are empty so i can play loud music. I also have a studio inside, so depending on the performance we’ll do it in the living room or the studio. So we just invite these people that we want to see and hang out with anyway, and we ask them to bring a usb. Sometimes we ask a specific person to do a solo performance (live or dj). It’s just very casual, fun and it’s more for us than it is for an audience. But i think filming and publishing it has kept everyone in check so people don’t play the same music they played last week. There is a little bit of discipline that i think has been healthy so far. When the pandemic hit, we had to social distance so we haven’t had any Irsh session since then but things have opened up again in cairo. They’re more or less normal. So we’re going to bring it back again very soon.
Is there someone in particular that you want to work with ?
I would love to make beats for Freddie Gibbs. The way he understands beats, the way he rides them and finds these pockets. At the same time he can actually rap.
He does collaborate with a lot of people.
Yeah he does. He’s very open but not to people like me, maybe to people in the actual rap/hiphop scene. But we’ll see, I’ll just keep putting it out there and see what happens.
What are you listening to lately ?
So much stuff, man. Cocktail Party Effect just released something. His album from last year has been on repeat since it came out. It’s beyond great. Last week he just released something on Bandcamp which is very ambient (if you want to call it that). Textures and stuff, it’s amazing.
The Oneohtrix Point Never record that came out in November I think. I missed that and I discovered it late January. I’ve been listening to that a lot. So much stuff i can’t remember at the moment but my playlist is mainly the stuff that I receive and stuff that I find on Bandcamp. Everyday there is something new.
Is there something you want to say about ALL CAPS, that we didn’t discuss?
Not to say that dance music is something to be taken lightly but the commentary, the track names, the critique of egyptian rap, all that stuff should be taken very lightly. I’m just having fun. I’m not trying to fight any battles or prove any points really I’m just expressing myself in a fun way.
But one thing i have to point out : Everyone please spell my name in ALL CAPS. I still get reviews where they spell ZULI with a capital Z and everything else is small. I’m like “dude it’s right there!”
Interview by Ghassen Ben Brahim (@dim.scr) for B-Saad
